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	<title>Comments on: Beyond JPEG</title>
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	<link>http://jeffmatherphotography.com/dispatches/2008/04/beyond-jpeg/</link>
	<description>The 9 to 5 Life of an International Playboy</description>
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		<title>By: Jeff Mather</title>
		<link>http://jeffmatherphotography.com/dispatches/2008/04/beyond-jpeg/comment-page-1/#comment-2107</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Mather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:37:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffmatherphotography.com/dispatches/2008/04/beyond-jpeg/#comment-2107</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your comments!

I think RAW formats are interesting and their name misleading.  For the most part they aren&#039;t nearly as &quot;uncooked&quot; as people expect.  It&#039;s quite possible that some use a form of lossy compression; I wouldn&#039;t be surprised.  After all, some Nikon RAW digital imaging pipelines involve some filtering that many consider &quot;destructive.&quot;

The whole goal of lossy image compression is to be visually lossless while throwing away or changing data.  I see the goal of RAW processing in a very similar way: to store data in a forward compatible way.  Who knows what capabilities we&#039;ll have in a decade which might look bad because of destructive choices in the current RAW pipeline?

I think if you can see blocky artifacts in the Canon RAW file -- and if that bothers you -- then that&#039;s a reason to eschew JPEG lossy compression.  If it doesn&#039;t bother you and if we can count on camera manufacturers to use the highest quality settings, then perhaps lossy JPEG can slide by.  But I suspect we&#039;ll ultimately wish that we could go back and redo some of those RAW settings.

Who knows, I might be wrong.

I&#039;ll admit that I haven&#039;t actually looked at any JPEG-XR images.  I&#039;ve just looked at the file format.  As a file format, it&#039;s much better than classic JPEG.  As a compression algorithm, DCT may in fact out-perform HD Photo&#039;s PCT.  There are several metrics people use for image quality, and no one agrees on which is best; just as there are many opinions on which compression mode &quot;looks best&quot; whatever the numbers say.

I do think that the JPEG file format needs to be &quot;stabilized&quot; and that we should move on to a new format that&#039;s more forward-looking.  Classic JPEG is like Ptolemy; we can keep adding features just like early cosmologists kept adding epicycles, but it&#039;s going to make the system more and more difficult.  JPEG-XR (or something formatted like it) is Copernican.  Let&#039;s move data back to the center of the system and keep attributes on the periphery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments!</p>
<p>I think RAW formats are interesting and their name misleading.  For the most part they aren&#8217;t nearly as &#8220;uncooked&#8221; as people expect.  It&#8217;s quite possible that some use a form of lossy compression; I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised.  After all, some Nikon RAW digital imaging pipelines involve some filtering that many consider &#8220;destructive.&#8221;</p>
<p>The whole goal of lossy image compression is to be visually lossless while throwing away or changing data.  I see the goal of RAW processing in a very similar way: to store data in a forward compatible way.  Who knows what capabilities we&#8217;ll have in a decade which might look bad because of destructive choices in the current RAW pipeline?</p>
<p>I think if you can see blocky artifacts in the Canon RAW file &#8212; and if that bothers you &#8212; then that&#8217;s a reason to eschew JPEG lossy compression.  If it doesn&#8217;t bother you and if we can count on camera manufacturers to use the highest quality settings, then perhaps lossy JPEG can slide by.  But I suspect we&#8217;ll ultimately wish that we could go back and redo some of those RAW settings.</p>
<p>Who knows, I might be wrong.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll admit that I haven&#8217;t actually looked at any JPEG-XR images.  I&#8217;ve just looked at the file format.  As a file format, it&#8217;s much better than classic JPEG.  As a compression algorithm, DCT may in fact out-perform HD Photo&#8217;s PCT.  There are several metrics people use for image quality, and no one agrees on which is best; just as there are many opinions on which compression mode &#8220;looks best&#8221; whatever the numbers say.</p>
<p>I do think that the JPEG file format needs to be &#8220;stabilized&#8221; and that we should move on to a new format that&#8217;s more forward-looking.  Classic JPEG is like Ptolemy; we can keep adding features just like early cosmologists kept adding epicycles, but it&#8217;s going to make the system more and more difficult.  JPEG-XR (or something formatted like it) is Copernican.  Let&#8217;s move data back to the center of the system and keep attributes on the periphery.</p>
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		<title>By: pixpush</title>
		<link>http://jeffmatherphotography.com/dispatches/2008/04/beyond-jpeg/comment-page-1/#comment-2105</link>
		<dc:creator>pixpush</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:42:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffmatherphotography.com/dispatches/2008/04/beyond-jpeg/#comment-2105</guid>
		<description>About RAW:
you mentioned lossless compression when dealing with RAW formats, but I found that Canon RAW for instance looks lossy compressed.
I might be wrong because I did not found specs for the latest Canon codec, but to the naked eye you can see blocks - more or less pronounced.
10+ Mpixels Canon RAW, 16bit, are squeezed in around 5 Mbytes...which sounds a bit lossy to me.
What&#039;s your experience on this ? Did it occured to you too ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About RAW:<br />
you mentioned lossless compression when dealing with RAW formats, but I found that Canon RAW for instance looks lossy compressed.<br />
I might be wrong because I did not found specs for the latest Canon codec, but to the naked eye you can see blocks &#8211; more or less pronounced.<br />
10+ Mpixels Canon RAW, 16bit, are squeezed in around 5 Mbytes&#8230;which sounds a bit lossy to me.<br />
What&#8217;s your experience on this ? Did it occured to you too ?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: pixpush</title>
		<link>http://jeffmatherphotography.com/dispatches/2008/04/beyond-jpeg/comment-page-1/#comment-2104</link>
		<dc:creator>pixpush</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:38:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffmatherphotography.com/dispatches/2008/04/beyond-jpeg/#comment-2104</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s getting more and more interesting!
You raised some good points against the &quot;jpeg does it all&quot; principle.
Although, as an example, Ward&#039;s Jpeg-HDR wasn&#039;t a &quot;modification&quot; of the jpeg algorithm nor of the jpeg file format itself, but uses a &quot;residual image&quot; in order to obtain HDR.
I suspect there&#039;s more to be &quot;done&quot; with jpeg using some &quot;external&quot; data, like Ward did.
I will try and investigate further the xdepth story...maybe they will spill the beans.
Personally, I don&#039;t quite like HD Photo. I tested it vs. Xdepth in Photoshop and it  really does a poor job with HDR...looks like jpeg on crack. :)
On 16bit data instead looks almost nice...but I didn&#039;t tested it for visual quality metrics, although someone else did apparently:
http://www.imagecompression.info/
...and results aren&#039;t really in favor of JpegXR.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s getting more and more interesting!<br />
You raised some good points against the &#8220;jpeg does it all&#8221; principle.<br />
Although, as an example, Ward&#8217;s Jpeg-HDR wasn&#8217;t a &#8220;modification&#8221; of the jpeg algorithm nor of the jpeg file format itself, but uses a &#8220;residual image&#8221; in order to obtain HDR.<br />
I suspect there&#8217;s more to be &#8220;done&#8221; with jpeg using some &#8220;external&#8221; data, like Ward did.<br />
I will try and investigate further the xdepth story&#8230;maybe they will spill the beans.<br />
Personally, I don&#8217;t quite like HD Photo. I tested it vs. Xdepth in Photoshop and it  really does a poor job with HDR&#8230;looks like jpeg on crack. <img src='http://jeffmatherphotography.com/dispatches_wp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
On 16bit data instead looks almost nice&#8230;but I didn&#8217;t tested it for visual quality metrics, although someone else did apparently:<br />
<a href="http://www.imagecompression.info/" rel="nofollow">http://www.imagecompression.info/</a><br />
&#8230;and results aren&#8217;t really in favor of JpegXR.</p>
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